North Texas Wind Riders Forum

[Darbonne]

I just started windsurfing this summer and have been making steady progress in my sailing. I have a Starboard Start and an Ezzy 5.8 Wave which seems to be a good combination for me right now. I came upon my board on Craigslist and the person gave me everything he had which included a 12.0 Windwing, a 12.0 Maui TR-1, a Gulftech carbon fiber boom and a Triana 580 cm carbon fiber mast. I am debating selling or trading this gear for something I can use now, like a 7.0 or 8.0 sail and mast. I notice that not many folks use big sails like the 12.0. Right now with my current skills I can't see using this stuff in the foreseeable future, and I am not sure I will ever have the skills to use a rig that large. I just don't want to regret getting rid of it one day, but it takes up a lot of storage. Should I keep it or trade it? That is my dilemma. Thanks.

[Ken]

Tough question. I have sailed formula for about 8-9 years and my largest sail is 11.0. I weight 167 lbs. The range of the 11.0 for me is 6-14 knots and I would much prefer to be on my 9.2 in 9-18 knots.

I have Maui Sails TR race sails of various vintages but no longer the TR-1 or TR-2. The TR1 was not too good because of camber rotation. You have to kick or punch them to rotate. By the TR-3's they got it right. The TR-8's are out this year.

Selling 12m sails will be tough, but it can be done. You have a while before your skills develop to where you could benefit much from the big sails, but that all depend on your time on the water and typical sailing conditions.

Buying big formula gear - sails, booms and masts is really expensive (roughly $2500.00+) but it's hard to get much for the used stuff.

The Start will take more wind to get it going than a true formula board, and you will likely outgrow it within a year. However, that all depends on how often you get out and in what conditions.

Good luck.

[Darbonne]

I weigh 205, and have the start. So I guess if I stick with the start maybe one day I might use the formula stuff in light wind. I really don't see myself moving to a formula board and going fast. I just want to cruise. I really haven't figured out the whole planing wind speed thing yet. I have looked at the wind speed calculator on the net and I have been out in strong winds once 15-20mph. I wasn't ready. I am still working on getting hooked in and moving to the rear of the board. I have a ways to go. So for now I guess the formula stuff will stay in the closet.

[Ken]

Formula gear is basically for going as fast as possible in the lightest winds, they are not for cruising (unless you are at least an advanced intermediate and have enough wind to plane).

Once you get the basics down and experience planing, your thoughts on what board you may want next could change.

Cruising is great on a "long board". 12' long with a dagger board, but somewhat narrow for gliding. They will plane, but it takes more wind than the typical, new, giant freeride board (140-170 liters).

Take your time and keep progressing. Windsurfing has a long learning curve and only time on the water can speed it up.

[ssc1]

If you wanted to improve your windsurfing skills as quickly as possible, you would spend as much time on the water as you can. Formula gear isn't going to help you at this point. It requires too much wind (assuming you're on an inland lake.)

You'd probably want something that you can sail in all conditions. Learn how to handle power. Learn how to sail in the straps. A modern board with a retractable centerboard is what folks at your level have been having the most luck with. An Equipe II, Kona One, or, my personal favorite, the Mistral Prodigy. You'd LOVE the Prodigy at your weight.

In 20 mph wind or less, these things do really well. You can sail them in light wind with the centerboard down or, when the wind picks up, retract the centerboard, and plane off. What makes them really nice is those days where there is no wind where you are launching, but there is wind out in the middle of the lake. You can sail out and back to where the wind is. Once there, you can make adjustments so that you can sail in planing mode.

I would ditch the formula gear, if you can. The stuff was really designed to do upwind/downwind racing. Sailing back and forth at 90 deg to the wind on one can get pretty crazy. When you get to the point where you're comfortable sailing in the straps with the centerboard retracted, you'll want to consider getting a 130 - 150 ltr freerace or slalom board. Compared to a formula board, it will be faster, turn better, and you'll be able to use a smaller sail at the same wind speeds. Some may say that the formula stuff will get planing in less wind, but that's debateable.

[Ken]

darbonne,

Formula is not where you should be at this time, and it's not for everyone even when skills develop to the advanced level.

However, a few of us love to be planing in 8-10 knots of wind with board speeds over 20 knots using formula gear. No other board does this except a high performance giant slalom race board, plus a couple of other boards like the starboard ultrasonic 147.

Beam reaching on a formula board is fine and fast, but most with formula boards have them for racing and it takes very large sails for upwind and downwind sailing. Take the same sail on a beam reach and you are in trouble. However, it you are racing with a 10.0, rig an 8 or 9 for beam reaching and you are fine.

On the other hand, when I wear out my formula board, I will likely look for something like the ultrasonic 147.

[Darbonne]

I am not in the straps yet. I am lucky that I live on a lake and I am getting a lot of board time (2-3 days a week) My Start is a 2001 model with a center fin instead of a retractable center board. I have removed it completely and am able to sail upwind pretty well without it. In a 10 mph wind I can get hooked in but haven't been able to get to the rear of the board and into the straps. I feel like I am almost there and might be able to do it in ideal conditions. They guy who sold me the gear used the formula sails with the Start and he was an experienced sailer. I will keep working until I can plane out on the Start, however I am thinking that I would like a 7-8m sail to cruise on lighter wind days. I am sure that I don't know what I don't know so that means keep practicing. I didn't think it would be this difficult.

[Ken]

Get rid of the big sails and go for something like a 7 meter. That's the normal progression for novice sailors - more power to get the board planing. Because the Start is large and heavy, it will take more power than a smaller, lighter board to plane. At 205 lbs, and a 7.0 sail, you will need about 18-20 mph winds to get the board planing. You could go to an 8.0 sail, but that's a big jump from you 5.6 so I would stay with a 7 or possibly a 7.5.

In the mean time, I would keep my eye out for a used GO or other intermediate board with at least 140 or more liters of volume. The Start is a good board, but you will out grow it pretty quickly.

[ssc1]

I just reread your initial posting and comments. You'd be really happy with an 8 +/- and a modern board with a retractable centerboard. For you living on a lake and wanting to sail alot and make progress, this is the 'do everything well' set-up. It's good that you're able to stay upwind with the Start. But there's no comparison with how these modern boards sail. You'll be able to sail anywhere in any wind. Plane when the wind is up, and glide in lighter wind. Did I mention light air freestyle?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KA576Cwdgg

A modern board with a retractable centerboard is something you should never outgrow. True, lots of folks become wind snobs, and have redefined windsurfing as planing. It has really hurt the sport. (In other words, some folks won't go sailing unless there is enough wind to plane.) But it doesn't have to be that way. I'm thankful that I get to sail longboards with a group that includes ex-national champions and olympians. We all sail small boards when conditions are right. But we don't outgrow the boards with the retractable centerboards, we just get better and better on them.

Racing tonight. 8.5 and Mistral Prodigy, regardless of conditions. Lake sail on Friday to greet the Space Shuttle mock-up arrival at Johnson Space Center, again on something with a retractable centerboard.

Keep your eye out for a Kona One, Mistral Prodigy (or similar boards referred to as Hybrids), Mistral Equipe II, or even the Olympic board, Neil Pryde RS:x, which folks will be dumping now that windsurfing has been dropped. Lots of stuff available in Houston if you're in the area.

[Darbonne]

even if I am not planing, so your post seems to make a lot of sense to me. I like the Start because I am big and it is stable and soft with its EVA deck, but I have nothing to compare it to. That must be why Ken has said that I will outgrow it quickly. Starting to think that I should unload the formula stuff if I can and go shopping. Thanks to all for the advice. One day I need to go to Dallas or Houston and sail with with some experienced sailors. Going to keep practicing because I am taking my board with me on my annual trip to Lake Michigan in July. I have this fantasy of cruising up and down the coast with the perfect onshore wind.

[Ken]

Longboards with dagger boards are good options. In Houston, they do a lot longboard racing (Wed. evenings I think), so if you have any competitive blood in you, racing is really fun, plus you learn a lot of windsurfing skills at the same time.

I have raced longboards for 28 years (still have a 1985 Mistral Superlight), but I only get on it for racing. For me, cruising on a longboard in light winds doesn't do it for me, since I could be moving at 20 knots of speed in 10 knots of wind on my formula board. Most of the boards that ssc1 mentions are more versatile than my Superlight (not a planing hull), but I have had other planing capable longboards over the years, but I only raced them.

Not everyone is the same and you probably aren't at the point where you can make a logical decision, but nevertheless, a longboard is still a good option. So much depends on your local conditions; amount of time you have on the water; plus your drive, dedication and personality.

[ssc1]

Race...freestyle...SUP...cruise...tour...explore...long distance...dolphin watch...overnight campouts on islands...gps speed runs...pub crawls...sail out to surf tanker waves...and yesterday, escort the shuttle mock-up in Clear Lake. All on the same board!! (Modern boards with retractable centerboards.)

I should mention that if you buy a Mistral Prodigy, get one with the black centerboard and fin, NOT the white plastic ones. The ones with the full eva decks are nice. The Kona One has the best organization, by far. Look at konaone.com. The folks on the red sails are all over 185 lbs. There are other Konas. You want the Kona One. The forum on the web site addresses specific questions pertaining to that board and sail, which is really great. Kona North American Championships are in Minneapolis on the last weekend in August. After that event, charter boards will be sold at a discount.

20 kts in 10 kts of wind should come with a disclaimer like you see on weight loss commercials (Your results may vary, results not typical). But that would be the subject of a different thread.

[Ken]

It's not that hard for board speed to double the wind speed on a formula board, but it's in the 10-12 knot wind range with an 11.0. I have carried a GPS on every outing for the last 7.5 years and recorded all the results (90 sailing days last year).

My top five best speeds in MPH on my formula boards are between 31.2 and 32.5 MPH, but in a lot more than 15-16 mph winds.

[ssc1]

I've GOT to get me one of those gps's that also reads wind speed. What kind is it?

[Ken]

A skeptic, so this made me think a little more and actually go to my spread sheets from the last 7.5 years and look at the times I sails my 11.0 or 9.5, or 9.2 on my formula boards(s).

The wind speeds are estimated by watching the water in the same location for over 20 years as well checking the Iwindsurf.com station after every outing. The station is about a mile from our launch and takes maximum and minimum readings every 5 minutes (used to be 10 minutes).

I guess I am due for some humble pie and shall boast no more about how easy it is. Here are the best 6 that came closest to achieving the 2X wind speed. The first and best result was on Lake Whitney so the wind was a guess and possibly off. Peak wind in MPH first, then top speed in MPH

1. 10 - 22.9
2. 11 - 22.0
3. 10 - 19.5
4. 15 - 28.9
5. 13 - 23.0
6. 14 - 25.1

The majority of time when I am on the formula board with an 11.0, the gusts exceed 15 mph, so on those days, I hit much faster speeds, and possibly sailed a twice the wind speed at times, but there is no way to know that. So I had to look at days where the wind speeds peaked at under 15 mph, which was very often. These aren't the days when I typically go out.

One issue with all of this is that I may or may not have achieved the top speeds when the wind was peaking. However, in the right circumstances, I do believe it can be done, just not as easily as I professed. A better sailor on a 12.0 sail should be able to achieve it a bit easier.